I don’t doubt that Nisbett is in part right, but if honor culture is responsible for the violence in the South because of immigration from Scotland and Ireland, shouldn’t we expect to find comparable levels of violence in Scotland and Southern Ireland (Northern Ireland is a specific case, and I would think not relevant here). And, unless I am mistaken, we don’t. So why would that be?
If I remember correctly, and I may not, Sowell was the real originator of these ideas. And it wasn't the culture of Scotland/Ireland in toto - it was the culture of the unstable Scottish-English border and of Ulster Plantation.
In Ulster, perhaps you do. Its also likely that their descendants made up a much bigger percentage of the US South than they ever did in the old country. Also likely the conditions that made them ended much sooner in the UK
there is no perhaps about it. The rate of criminality is not the same in Ulster as in the South of the US. And in fact, rather obviously, the conditions had changed in the US right away. Life was obviously very different in the US from what it was in the Ulster. It may be that the conditions in the US favored more violence than they did in the UK. But what actually changed the conditions in the UK?
In the UK Scotland and England united so the border was less lawless. He may have not included Ulster at all. I can't really argue for it because I don't remember the details. The 2005 book is called Black Rednecks and White Liberals if you are interested
If you look at any country in the Americas it will have a higher level of violence than a country elsewhere in the world at the same economic development level. Do you have an explanation for this?
I had planned to write "That last part will probably piss off the 'Abolish The Police!' crowd", but that was before the very first comment here proved me right.
Whether people like it or not, these conclusions do make sense: we already know that people take the law into their own hands if they believe that 911 is, in fact, a joke. If the cops can earn people's trust, people would be more likely to call them and less likely to pull out their guns, right? So the question is: CAN cops earn people's trust in a climate where so many people believe that literally ALL cops are bastards and that this will never change?
Compare the homicide rates of Toronto (population approx. 3 million) with any large American city and the gap is pretty shocking. Toronto has very rarely gone over 100 homicides. A bad year is 80-90.
This article is so well-informed and developed, and I really appreciate the comparison it makes with other countries in regards to levels of violence and danger. Many Americans decide not to travel scared of the danger they’d find in other countries, without realizing the absurd level of violence within our own.
One thing I would’ve appreciated more development on is gender.
You mention "Simply looking at economic status, racial classification, gender, or age does not explain the elevated levels of violence we see in America," while men are responsible for a high majority of violent crimes. It'd be interesting to explore the narratives of masculinity within which boys in the US are raised to become men, the value of violence, aggression, and emotional repression that are instilled in this group, as well as the lack of conversation around men's mental health. Not only do many men commit violence against others, but to themselves if we consider their suicide and addiction rates.
It may have made the article a bit longer, but perhaps it could be connected back to this article in a future one. :)
I must have misunderstood this article’s conclusion, because I thought it said that Black communities need more policing. Given the kind of interactions that have driven distrust over the centuries, it’s hard to see how more of this failing, and violent same is not going to make a bad situation worse.
The last three paragraphs seem to make complete sense when laid on top of this honor culture thesis. Lenz’s observation is backed up by plenty of data. Look at how Baltimore reversed its horrific murder rate, and contrast that with LA’s slide into lawlessness on its mass transit system. Effective policing—lawful, fair, constitutional—is essential to safe communities. And if this honor culture thesis has legs, it seems to me to reinforce that point.
I don’t doubt that Nisbett is in part right, but if honor culture is responsible for the violence in the South because of immigration from Scotland and Ireland, shouldn’t we expect to find comparable levels of violence in Scotland and Southern Ireland (Northern Ireland is a specific case, and I would think not relevant here). And, unless I am mistaken, we don’t. So why would that be?
If I remember correctly, and I may not, Sowell was the real originator of these ideas. And it wasn't the culture of Scotland/Ireland in toto - it was the culture of the unstable Scottish-English border and of Ulster Plantation.
But still, the point stands. Wouldn’t you expect to find at least traces of it in today’s borderlands and in Ulster?
In Ulster, perhaps you do. Its also likely that their descendants made up a much bigger percentage of the US South than they ever did in the old country. Also likely the conditions that made them ended much sooner in the UK
there is no perhaps about it. The rate of criminality is not the same in Ulster as in the South of the US. And in fact, rather obviously, the conditions had changed in the US right away. Life was obviously very different in the US from what it was in the Ulster. It may be that the conditions in the US favored more violence than they did in the UK. But what actually changed the conditions in the UK?
In the UK Scotland and England united so the border was less lawless. He may have not included Ulster at all. I can't really argue for it because I don't remember the details. The 2005 book is called Black Rednecks and White Liberals if you are interested
If you look at any country in the Americas it will have a higher level of violence than a country elsewhere in the world at the same economic development level. Do you have an explanation for this?
I had planned to write "That last part will probably piss off the 'Abolish The Police!' crowd", but that was before the very first comment here proved me right.
Whether people like it or not, these conclusions do make sense: we already know that people take the law into their own hands if they believe that 911 is, in fact, a joke. If the cops can earn people's trust, people would be more likely to call them and less likely to pull out their guns, right? So the question is: CAN cops earn people's trust in a climate where so many people believe that literally ALL cops are bastards and that this will never change?
Compare the homicide rates of Toronto (population approx. 3 million) with any large American city and the gap is pretty shocking. Toronto has very rarely gone over 100 homicides. A bad year is 80-90.
This article is so well-informed and developed, and I really appreciate the comparison it makes with other countries in regards to levels of violence and danger. Many Americans decide not to travel scared of the danger they’d find in other countries, without realizing the absurd level of violence within our own.
One thing I would’ve appreciated more development on is gender.
You mention "Simply looking at economic status, racial classification, gender, or age does not explain the elevated levels of violence we see in America," while men are responsible for a high majority of violent crimes. It'd be interesting to explore the narratives of masculinity within which boys in the US are raised to become men, the value of violence, aggression, and emotional repression that are instilled in this group, as well as the lack of conversation around men's mental health. Not only do many men commit violence against others, but to themselves if we consider their suicide and addiction rates.
It may have made the article a bit longer, but perhaps it could be connected back to this article in a future one. :)
Highly recommend the book Texas Tough, which addresses the honor-culture issue.
This follows closely Richard Dawkins’s original concept of the meme. It’s Viral ideology. Se also: Israel, a nation of murderous psychopaths.
This is really fascinating stuff, Zaid...thanks for covering this!
I must have misunderstood this article’s conclusion, because I thought it said that Black communities need more policing. Given the kind of interactions that have driven distrust over the centuries, it’s hard to see how more of this failing, and violent same is not going to make a bad situation worse.
The last three paragraphs seem to make complete sense when laid on top of this honor culture thesis. Lenz’s observation is backed up by plenty of data. Look at how Baltimore reversed its horrific murder rate, and contrast that with LA’s slide into lawlessness on its mass transit system. Effective policing—lawful, fair, constitutional—is essential to safe communities. And if this honor culture thesis has legs, it seems to me to reinforce that point.