Season 4 of the Boys was just painful, and not because it doesn’t take shots at “both sides” (they seem to be trying to parody #metoo at times but don’t really know how) but because not a single joke lands. They’re also pushing a twinfold narrative that MAGA voters are simultaneously 1. paranoid conspiracy theorist losers who think progressives are coming for their children and 2. Going to put half the country in prison camps and come for your children. The irony is so deep that the season 4 finale could almost be interpreted as a metafictional satire of how storytellers project their own persecution fantasies onto rival political factions, if only the writers and showrunners were remotely intelligent or witty enough for such a device to be plausible.
I think part of what happened with The Boys is that edge-lord online Trump supporters started to talk about how "Homelander is based" to thumb their nose at the creators of the show and Kripke literally didn't understand the joke, and thought the proper reaction was to make the show even less subtle (not that it ever was subtle).
It sounds like another question in "Look Who's Back" might be, is it really about the person (such as Hitler) or is it about the conditions? When leadership itself fails so badly, are they not setting up a system ripe for the plucking by an authoritarian? And are they not partially to blame by their willfully ignoring the wishes and the needs of the people of the country in pursuit of their own advantage? Is it unfair to blame *people* for the rise of someone like Hitler (or like Trump, if you think he's Hitler 2.0)? Instead, should you not be blaming the Bushes and the Obamas and all the other political elite?
And that is what to me satire could do better: punch up. The Boys and Don't Look Up! punch down. Authors like Kurt Vonnegut and Douglas Adams punch up or point out foibles among humanity as a whole or human systems.
Don't Look Up was a little better about this than The Boys, but both did spend a ton of time just arguing that everybody who is remotely conservative is just stupid. If life was that simple, then things would be nice, wouldn't it? But the complexity of politics is what makes problems hard to solve.
Zaid, another delightfully level-headed piece. Much appreciated.
Quite a number of people, including me, have puzzled over this. Theories abound: Trump beyond satire, too much polarization/belief, etc. But I think one of the problems is the sheer quantity of media (tech), which tends to make communication monochromatic, shrill, simplistic. We have easy access to facts ("facts"???) but cinema became comic book franchises, or "universes," and TLDR became a thing. We don't even have time to write it out. In this discursive environment, it very difficult for an author to achieve the sort of nuance and depth you rightly wish to see, much less communicate it to somebody else, much less use that as the foundation for the author's satire. It's never been easy, and is still possible, but it has gotten to be a tall order. Keep up the good work!
I agree with a lot of your points, particularly the idea that good satire should take shots at both sides and ask more questions than supply answers. That is the approach that I took while writing my debut novel, VICTIM, which was published in March. I think you might enjoy it: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/725334/victim-by-andrew-boryga/
I'm not sure "both sides" really has to happen to be good. (But its omission is a danger sign.)
Some conservatives would lean into The Boys and dress up as Homelander at Trump events. Kripke lost his shit at this. There's no death-of-the-author and him just letting people interpret it the way they want (even if that way is dumb and wrong, which I think it is). But you can tell by season 4 that these people are living in his head in every scene. He stays up at night worried that his friends will say he's not being anti-MAGA enough. "Okay, I'll leave there absolutely no doubt" and so we get this.
I absolutely loved your book. I had almost given up on reading books with social or political themes and I was worried Victim would also use the good vs evil trope too, but definitely didn’t.
This was fantastic, you articulated everything I've been feeling for... EVER since I was a genius in utero. I just saw a headline on substack saying "satire is harming real news" bcs supposedly people skip the satire subheading and interpret it as real, "causing" misinformation. Hang on.... a+b= your fault.
I don't know if it's quite satire as such but you know what movie surprisingly really worked was this one called "An American Pickle" by Seth Rogan, The premise sounds retarded but the idea is this Jewish immigrant from Eastern Europe [Seth Rogan] falls into pickle brine and is preserved for 100 years then is woken up and meets his descendant [also Seth Rogan]
the aspect of how an early 20th century Jewish immigrant would view a modern secular Brooklyn Jew was really strong, as was society's general reaction to the guy
Did anyone genuinely learn that The Boys was anti-Homelander only in season 4? I see the joke "ha ha you only discovered it now" but that seemed like a defense mechanism against people pointing out how much it completely gave up on any kind of subtlety? Kripke was butthurt about people cosplaying as Homelander and ruined his art for it.
Those with talent are left either cowering in the shadows to avoid the color guard’s harsh gaze or are simply gone. There is no nuance. There are mostly Kevin Feige like leaders in the c-suite, who only care about their legacies, the credits and their wallets and the blue haired trans-queer-dog-people working the mines, who abhor the “Feiges” and pray for their violent ousting. It’s beyond embarrassing.
The Boys was created by Garth Ennis, a man who could/would do no wrong for over 30 years, then Seth Rogan took over EP of Preacher. So began the dismantling of some of the greatest comic writing ever done. To this day I pray whatever run they might plan for “The Authority” never sees the light of day. Midnighter is already gay, so imagine what the 2025 version might be.
SCENE
MIDNIGHTER enters the antechamber, zer penises fully erect, zis vagina, ready. As ze thoughtlessly passes by the Ark of the Covenant zis hard unobtanium reinforced cock carves a gash into the backside of the object.
The image of APOLLO and his fiery butthole beckon MIDNIGHTER, like an ethically bred, ungendered baby to the teet of their fur laden chest feeder. MIDNIGHTER is the only being across the infinite worlds of the Bleed who is able to put their aroused genitals inside the Sun God.
This. Is. Love.
SCENE
Everyone left in Hollywood and entertainment today that isn’t insulated by extremely strong leadership (read: nobody) awaits the day when their movie, game, play, whatever can be reviewed by some little weasel who makes statements like “can you believe this is the team that made Xxx?? It’s 2021!” As he breathlessly points out a team of 90% white guys from a tiny video game company.
If anyone is looking for another good satire that poses more questions than answers and gives plenty to chew on, try You Feel it Just Below the Ribs by Jeffrey Cranor and Janina Mathewson. (It’s connected to their podcast Within The Wires, but you don’t have to listen to it to follow the book)
Season 4 of the Boys was just painful, and not because it doesn’t take shots at “both sides” (they seem to be trying to parody #metoo at times but don’t really know how) but because not a single joke lands. They’re also pushing a twinfold narrative that MAGA voters are simultaneously 1. paranoid conspiracy theorist losers who think progressives are coming for their children and 2. Going to put half the country in prison camps and come for your children. The irony is so deep that the season 4 finale could almost be interpreted as a metafictional satire of how storytellers project their own persecution fantasies onto rival political factions, if only the writers and showrunners were remotely intelligent or witty enough for such a device to be plausible.
While I have no answer to your parting questions, I do want to thank you for:
(1) highlighting the beauty and importance of asking over telling--not that I'm any kind of practical expert!--and
(2) inspiring me to use the time I would have spent watching season 4 to read Look Who's Back, instead. :)
I think part of what happened with The Boys is that edge-lord online Trump supporters started to talk about how "Homelander is based" to thumb their nose at the creators of the show and Kripke literally didn't understand the joke, and thought the proper reaction was to make the show even less subtle (not that it ever was subtle).
It sounds like another question in "Look Who's Back" might be, is it really about the person (such as Hitler) or is it about the conditions? When leadership itself fails so badly, are they not setting up a system ripe for the plucking by an authoritarian? And are they not partially to blame by their willfully ignoring the wishes and the needs of the people of the country in pursuit of their own advantage? Is it unfair to blame *people* for the rise of someone like Hitler (or like Trump, if you think he's Hitler 2.0)? Instead, should you not be blaming the Bushes and the Obamas and all the other political elite?
And that is what to me satire could do better: punch up. The Boys and Don't Look Up! punch down. Authors like Kurt Vonnegut and Douglas Adams punch up or point out foibles among humanity as a whole or human systems.
Don't Look Up was a little better about this than The Boys, but both did spend a ton of time just arguing that everybody who is remotely conservative is just stupid. If life was that simple, then things would be nice, wouldn't it? But the complexity of politics is what makes problems hard to solve.
I think this is what makes South Park excellent after nearly 30 years.
Zaid, another delightfully level-headed piece. Much appreciated.
Quite a number of people, including me, have puzzled over this. Theories abound: Trump beyond satire, too much polarization/belief, etc. But I think one of the problems is the sheer quantity of media (tech), which tends to make communication monochromatic, shrill, simplistic. We have easy access to facts ("facts"???) but cinema became comic book franchises, or "universes," and TLDR became a thing. We don't even have time to write it out. In this discursive environment, it very difficult for an author to achieve the sort of nuance and depth you rightly wish to see, much less communicate it to somebody else, much less use that as the foundation for the author's satire. It's never been easy, and is still possible, but it has gotten to be a tall order. Keep up the good work!
Thoughtful piece Zaid. Erik Hoel recently wrote a similar piece on Substack about satire that I would recommend to you: https://www.theintrinsicperspective.com/p/the-universe-suddenly-hates-satire
I agree with a lot of your points, particularly the idea that good satire should take shots at both sides and ask more questions than supply answers. That is the approach that I took while writing my debut novel, VICTIM, which was published in March. I think you might enjoy it: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/725334/victim-by-andrew-boryga/
I'm not sure "both sides" really has to happen to be good. (But its omission is a danger sign.)
Some conservatives would lean into The Boys and dress up as Homelander at Trump events. Kripke lost his shit at this. There's no death-of-the-author and him just letting people interpret it the way they want (even if that way is dumb and wrong, which I think it is). But you can tell by season 4 that these people are living in his head in every scene. He stays up at night worried that his friends will say he's not being anti-MAGA enough. "Okay, I'll leave there absolutely no doubt" and so we get this.
I absolutely loved your book. I had almost given up on reading books with social or political themes and I was worried Victim would also use the good vs evil trope too, but definitely didn’t.
Honored to hear that, Eric! Thanks so much. Very glad that you enjoyed it and that it exceeded your expectations
This was fantastic, you articulated everything I've been feeling for... EVER since I was a genius in utero. I just saw a headline on substack saying "satire is harming real news" bcs supposedly people skip the satire subheading and interpret it as real, "causing" misinformation. Hang on.... a+b= your fault.
Oh also, I'm a teacher and I loved that you added "what does good satire look like?" Well crafted, end on a DO MORE OF THIS note. Thanks!
I don't know if it's quite satire as such but you know what movie surprisingly really worked was this one called "An American Pickle" by Seth Rogan, The premise sounds retarded but the idea is this Jewish immigrant from Eastern Europe [Seth Rogan] falls into pickle brine and is preserved for 100 years then is woken up and meets his descendant [also Seth Rogan]
the aspect of how an early 20th century Jewish immigrant would view a modern secular Brooklyn Jew was really strong, as was society's general reaction to the guy
watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Did anyone genuinely learn that The Boys was anti-Homelander only in season 4? I see the joke "ha ha you only discovered it now" but that seemed like a defense mechanism against people pointing out how much it completely gave up on any kind of subtlety? Kripke was butthurt about people cosplaying as Homelander and ruined his art for it.
"The Adam McKay-helmed climate change satire was a really fun watch."
Zaid, like this comment if you're being held hostage and need us to rescue you.
Those with talent are left either cowering in the shadows to avoid the color guard’s harsh gaze or are simply gone. There is no nuance. There are mostly Kevin Feige like leaders in the c-suite, who only care about their legacies, the credits and their wallets and the blue haired trans-queer-dog-people working the mines, who abhor the “Feiges” and pray for their violent ousting. It’s beyond embarrassing.
The Boys was created by Garth Ennis, a man who could/would do no wrong for over 30 years, then Seth Rogan took over EP of Preacher. So began the dismantling of some of the greatest comic writing ever done. To this day I pray whatever run they might plan for “The Authority” never sees the light of day. Midnighter is already gay, so imagine what the 2025 version might be.
SCENE
MIDNIGHTER enters the antechamber, zer penises fully erect, zis vagina, ready. As ze thoughtlessly passes by the Ark of the Covenant zis hard unobtanium reinforced cock carves a gash into the backside of the object.
The image of APOLLO and his fiery butthole beckon MIDNIGHTER, like an ethically bred, ungendered baby to the teet of their fur laden chest feeder. MIDNIGHTER is the only being across the infinite worlds of the Bleed who is able to put their aroused genitals inside the Sun God.
This. Is. Love.
SCENE
Everyone left in Hollywood and entertainment today that isn’t insulated by extremely strong leadership (read: nobody) awaits the day when their movie, game, play, whatever can be reviewed by some little weasel who makes statements like “can you believe this is the team that made Xxx?? It’s 2021!” As he breathlessly points out a team of 90% white guys from a tiny video game company.
Nobody wanted this.
If anyone is looking for another good satire that poses more questions than answers and gives plenty to chew on, try You Feel it Just Below the Ribs by Jeffrey Cranor and Janina Mathewson. (It’s connected to their podcast Within The Wires, but you don’t have to listen to it to follow the book)