The white population in the U.S. peaked at nearly 90%, but now it's down to 60%. That's a significant shift. In places like Springfield, where immigration is happening quickly, it's understandably tough for residents to adjust. Instead of calling them racist, we could be more understanding of their concerns. Rapid change can be hard for any community, and I wouldn’t want mine to change so quickly either.
Agreed. But the cat nip of Trumps crazy online nonsense should not be used to ignore the very real challenges of Springfield. I imagine liberals and conservatives have different visions on how to deal with these challenges. That’s the debate we need.
Heck said this. This is worthy of conversation. "These rumors will not distract us from the real strain on our resources, including the impact to our schools, health care system and first responders," Heck said.
Think of this in the context of NIMBYISM where a community can shut down a single development project by using the system and complaining about road and school capacity. Do you think adding 15,000 immigrants is going to push the limits of that capacity? That’s a fair conversation.
So I listened to Heck’s whole speech before I responded. Here is what I heard: a salesman pleading with industry not to go somewhere else, because the only problem the town is really facing is a strain on resources, and they promise they’ll fix it. Ignore all those rumors about anything else. And from his point of view, this influx of migrants is a great thing. They’re a workforce with very low expectations. I have to ask: if these jobs were so great, why were Americans not moving to the area? Why Haitians?
There is a lot of exploitation going on here. I wasn’t paying attention until I started reading between the lines. They’re exploiting the community because these people are really too poor for anyone to give a damn about them or listen to them, and they’re exploiting the Haitians. They’re a cheap workforce with low expectations. And given that now everyone wants to pour in taxpayer money, they’re exploiting the taxpayers as well to help put a bandaid over the problems of exploiting the first two groups. And once again, “business” makes out like a bandit. It’s the real American dream.
This clip has been making the rounds(guy looks like Mario!), homeless activist in Springfield highlighting that US bets getting short shrift compared to newcomers. This is sort of thing that inflames because it reinforces that existing citizens are deprioritized vs. new immigrants.
"The white population in the U.S. peaked at nearly 90%, but now it's down to 60%. That's a significant shift. In places like Springfield, where immigration is happening quickly, it's understandably tough for residents to adjust."
I think it's obvious. Those white folk are just worried because things are changing. We need to understand them and be patient. It just drips with condescension. Just call them bigots and get it overwith.
In case you didn't bother to check, the mayor and the city manager who downplayed the problems are white, and the guy who is running for mayor is black. So how does that play with your insinuations of racial demographics and "trouble adapting to change" being the big issue here?
I am them. I do not call them bigots. They are my friends and family. I come from an even smaller town not too far from there. You have me wrong, madame.
You did just call them bigots. You might fancy up the words a bit, but that’s essentially what you’re saying. You may not realize you’re saying it. You may honestly think that you’re finding nuance or being patient with those less—what would be a good word—open-minded than you. But that is what you are saying when you dismiss all this a worries about demographic change.
Wow you will not let this go. You’re just wrong. I did not call them bigots. This is clearly a you thing. By the way you don’t get to tell me what I mean.
You are right that I do believe there is complicated nuance here that is all very human. You’re 100% wrong that I’m calling them bigots. I’m actually calling out many who are in fact inferring they are bigots.
I really appreciate this and your piece at The Dispatch. I've said for years that many of the classic conservative values of the GOP would align strongly with immigrant citizens if they'd just stop leaning on bigoted messaging.
I think the progressive folks at George Lakoff's FrameLab often overstate their case, but their point that attacking Afro-Caribbean immigrants has subtext about VP Harris is one that I'm chewing on this week.
9A, I agree there are many conservative values of GOP that go hand-to-glove with immigrant citizens. But some much more than others. For example, Mexicans (most/many with strong Christian ethics) have assimilated with native USA population the very best. So did Cuban immigrants, as did Vietnamese due to shared anti-socialist/communist views. Now, with the very latest immigrants what are the ties that can bind? We need to find them and then celebrate them. My wife and I are evangelical churchgoers. For past 2-years my wife has volunteered to drive Afghan women immigrants to English class at local church, then watch their kids so those women can learn the English language. This is what Christianity calls her to do (welcome the sojourner). But from a pure assimilation POV, this also helps newcomers join our melting pot. From my side, I fell into playing basketball with a group of Persians, who are 1st, 2nd and now 3rd generation refugees from Iran. Some of my best friends now because of sport, and another example of hard-working people who melted right into the fabric of our country. Our press needs to find and celebrate the coming together stories instead of only the downsides (which there certainly are).
I'm very skeptical about immigration, but I laughed out loud when Trump spewed that nonsense about Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs. What an idiotic thing to say.
Also, having volunteered with homeless people for decades, I can tell you that they sometimes kill raccoons, roast them over an open fire, and eat them. Okay, I saw it done once.
But poor people do desperate things to survive. Which is why I'm voting for the candidate who didn't make groceries unaffordable to the poor and working class. MAGA.
Thanks for your post, Zaid, including the link to your Dispatch drop. It's good even-handed journalism on touchy and important subject.
Indeed, our entire country from its very origins is based on continual 'demographic turnover'. It's in our DNA to absorb new peoples, over and over. The 1798 decree opened flood gate initially for whites to populate the continent. It's also part of our history to halt/stop immigration when the inflow feels threatening to the natives (1882 Chinese, 1917, 1921 & 1924 non-western Europeans).
Then 1965 Immigration Act (opening immigration to Asia and South of border brown skinned peoples) is the latest and context which this unfortunate 'eat the pets' hyperbole originates from. As a conservative, I support modifications to the 1965 Act to have more means-testing (that will likely never occur). I also support you in calling out any and all painting peoples with a broad brush as different/barbaric, such as this case.
I completely sympathize with our fellow citizens (so called deplorables), 60 years removed from 1965 Act, and in much different economic conditions than when Act was passed. I can't blame natives for feeling threatened by newcomers; many see themselves as worse off than their parents, see a wide-open border and a Federal government and Congress who's existence is supported on D-side by endless funding of the Welfare state (which many immigrants initially and some continually rely on and also very much tied to the mid-1960s) -- and on the R-side, endless funding of the Defense Industry which Ike warned us all about when he left office in '61.
I think the most dangerous 'demographic turnover' is occurring in Europe. Countries that do not have any history of this happening. The trans-global upper crust Boomer-class (born '46 - '64) are imposing the USA-experience of people-turnover on UK, France, Germany, etc. touting it as 'good'. But I'm afraid it's going to lead to wars and ugliness well beyond words. It's good to some, and not good for others. Those peoples (unlike USA) long ago segregated themselves into specific land places. Now those age-old neighborhoods are being changed (browned), but all in one-generation. What we saw recently in the UK isn't going away. And if governments are going to throw folks in jail for protesting against this rapid demographic change, then civil wars in the EU-region have a higher opportunity to occur.
While I see your point, I think there is a more crucial one to be made. 20K Haitians came into a town of 60K. At least two people have been killed by the immigrants' reckless driving. They are pushing up the rent and putting an extreme strain on the social services of the town. And none of this gets noticed by you or by the media until wild stories start flying around about eating pets. And yes I know what you'll say: but they hysteria distracts from the problem. To which I laugh in caustic disbelief because the hysteria is the *only reason* anyone has noticed the problem.
This is what happens when you ignore things. I've seen videos from that town. It's a poor, poor town. They can't handle this kind of influx of anybody, much less a bunch of people that don't speak the language and need a lot of help. And, yes, maybe a few Haitians are working there, but they're also clogging up the welfare office and putting a strain on the school system and other services.
As for the local city managers' denials? Ha. Now that people have noticed there is an issue, DeWine is wanting to dump millions on the town. It won't really go to help the locals, but I bet a bunch of bureaucrats and NGOs are going to make bank. Continuing the problem is now financially incentivized as is denial that the Haitians are anything but model citizens with a few rotten apples.
We don't live in rational times. If we did, it wouldn't have taken this to get that town help and start a conversation about this problem.
Now go Google New York TImes and Springfield Ohio, and see what you discover. Hint: it will be that for that one lone article they have _eight_ about the cat rumor. So you're seriously going to tell me this is the New York Times "noticing" the problem. They have _eight_ stories about the rumor and one story about the problems in the town. So what do you think they *really* care about? Getting Trump or helping get the town noticed?
Well the question can also be turned. Do we care about helping Trump or honest journalism about the town? Because it seems like you wanted a hit piece on the Haitian immigrants, and you haven't acknowledged that the town was in danger of collapsing just 10 years ago because of all the population losses, job losses, etc. That's all been reversed, their budget is healthier than ever, they have tons of job openings, people moving in. There are also growing pains and issues with that, but I don't think the picture you want painted is particularly balanced or journalistic either.
I just looked at this article you posted past the headline because I had to go through archive.is. Here is the subtitle: "Jobs attracted thousands of Haitians to Springfield, and employers were ecstatic. But then an immigrant driver was involved in a fatal school bus crash. And JD Vance entered the fray."
I am going to suggest that had "JD Vance" not gotten involved this *never* would have made the pages of the New York Times. They don't care about the immigrants. They don't care about the school bus crash. They don't care about the town. They care that "JD Vance" got involved. And I can prove this because JD Vance (and proving how racist and wrong he is) is the focus of the article:
"The stage was set for another fraught chapter in the debate over immigration in America, this one magnified because JD Vance, the state’s junior senator, would soon become the Republican vice-presidential nominee."
I was not looking for a "hit piece" on Haitian immigrants. I was looking for honesty. I didn't get it from the New York Times. And I'm not getting it from you.
As for healthy budgets and more jobs . . . what benefits one group of people often costs another. There weren't twenty-thousand added jobs. I can tell you that. And town coffers often bloom based on events that in general don't bode well for their residents. Ask the people of any town in Montana where a swarm of remote workers came in, drove up housing prices, drove up property taxes, and left the locals struggling to afford homes and rent. From the bottom line perspective, wonderful, right? From an affordable living for the locals standpoint, not so great. You're making a common mistake of the capitalist class that "mo' money" can offset anything.
So here's a request. Put down the New York Times, and go spend some time on Twitter. Look at the videos of the townspeople. Some of them are full of shit. I'll admit it. But some, like the woman who lost her 71 year old mother in law because she was hit in her driveway moving the garbage can and no one has even been arrested for it much less prosecuted, are heartbreaking to listen to. And the guy running for mayor because he's angry about what's going on is not Caucasian, so this isn't a "race" thing. This is a "people at a distance don't care because our problems don't fit your narrative" thing.
I thought the NYT article was fine. Vance was definitely not the focus of the article; it effectively conveys the mess and chaos that inevitably results when you suddenly add 20,000 immigrants from a very different culture. But also some of the less dire realities. Is this a good outcome, is the town now in good shape? Probably not. As you say, the real problem is those who exploit others' desperation. Does that mean that Haitians living in Florida should not be allowed to move to other states for better opportunities, or that we should turn away all refugees from a country ravaged by civil war that lies on our doorstep? There are no easy answers, just humane and realistic ones; we have to go with the values that matter most to us, and debate this in good faith when we disagree. I didn't hear any overtones of fascism or dehumanization in what you said, and you make important observations. But you're just as biased as I am (or Zaid for that matter). Which doesn't particularly bother me, it's part of the challenge of figuring out where we stand on all this stuff.
As for the Times writers only running this piece because it came up in Vance's speech and not giving a shit: I mean, maybe. But maybe not. I've seen plenty of decent media coverage of local issues that weren't namechecked by major politicians. What difference does it make what the impetus was, as long as it resulted in something that deserved coverage getting covered? Journalists should do research and seek out what's overlooked, but that doesn't mean they can't also follow up on something that entered the public discussion after becoming a talking point in the election race.
The article is fine if you are fine with the New York Times' shallowness. And it was a "get JD Vance" article, with the basic message being, "Yes, there are some problems, but that bigot just hates these newcomers and wants to make something out of nothing and look how great the business interests are doing. The guy who invested $25 mil in the town is certainly jumping for joy. (I suppose I wonder how he knew to invest $25 mil in a random town in Ohio buying and refurbishing "distressed" homes, but I seem to be the only one.) All those landlords that could stop taking government vouchers for rent to help low-income people and are now renting to Haitians. So we end up with homeless locals. Pfft. They can move on. JD Vance is such a big meanie and so overreactive." If JD Vance hadn't mentioned Springfield, neither would the Times, and that colored their coverage. And, yes, we all have our bias, but a little journalistic curiosity wouldn't kill those with resources. I have to rely on Twitter and sources like the New York Times. Twitter and the New York Times aren't painting the same picture. Independent media should fill that in, but in this case, there seems to be no curiosity at all.
Don't you wonder how twenty thousand Haitians end up in a random little town in Ohio? I mean, yes people will move into an area in mass if jobs are on offer, but there aren't *that many jobs* on offer because they're still flooding the welfare offices and it's all Haitians, not a mix of immigrants. It's almost as if they were recruited. If these jobs are so great, then why haven't the locals been taking them? Or other people looking for work going there? Don't you have questions? Are the Haitians really being treated properly by the employers? Are they being paid the average wages for the area? Is the town itself getting some financial perk that they're willing to sacrifice their citizens' standard of living for?
Were there any other vehicle related fatalities NOT involving Haitian immigrants? Do the statistics suggest that Haitian immigrants are overly responsible for vehicular fatalities based on the percentage of population they represent compared per capita to other US locations?
I’m not suggesting a conversation can’t be had either. But base it on reality, not disgusting fascist lies, please.
Ruth, a suggestion? Perhaps refrain from calling folks you disagree with as speaking as a 'fascist'? I nodded my head with the 1st paragraph of your post. Then the words 'disgusting and fascist' turned my head from vertical, to horizontal. Lillia and her drops here are neither disgusting or fascist, IMO.
My first impulse was to immediately apologize because I absolutely agree with you that name calling, especially with loaded language like “fascist” and “disgusting” is unacceptable and the furthest thing from persuasive.
Then I looked back at what I wrote before I dropped to my knees and prostrated myself and saw that it was the lies I’d labeled and not the people putting the lies out there. Fascist propaganda is fascist propaganda. The lies do disgust me and they are objectively dangerous. History bears out this claim. See Nazi Germany “Jews as vermin taking what belongs to rightful Germans”.
This is the same kind of talk.
I do apologize if anyone felt I was referring to THEM as disgusting or fascist, but not for my description of the rhetoric as same.
Appreciate you making me check myself, though. Really.
Thank you, Ruth. We are all fallen people and sin on the daily, all of us. I post stuff from time to time I wish I hadn't. No need to prostrate or anything like that, just would be great on Zaid's site if we could remember our collective humanity and not pick and choose who is worthy of empathy/decency. I feel largely that is what the Left has done with Trump, each time I hear the 'fascists' language come out. And then when he states the pet-stuff that provides fuel to that already raging-fire, which is regrettable.
Oh, good grief girl. Stop with the virtue signaling. Fascism was a collectivist ideological answer to communism that gave corporations the run of the country. That's it. The right screams "communism" and the left screams "fascism" and neither has any real idea what either one really means. And I find anyone who throws those terms around lightly to be somewhere on the spectrum of ridiculous, and, yes, before your feathers get all ruffled and you waste more time raging at me, that includes Trump. Despite what you and Mr. Jilani may think, not everything is a duality of for or against Trump.
The fact that you use the word “fascist” in a way that does not reflect its meaning suggests you’re not a serious person, but I’ll give you a serious answer anyway.
When a local citizen is given a license to drive, it is because at some point they have taken driver’s education, gone through the permit process, and taken and passed both a written test and a road test. If later they are in an accident that causes a fatality, the state has done its due diligence to make sure they knew the rules of the road and how to safely operate the vehicle. Many Haitians are being given drivers’ licenses when they clearly cannot drive. They obviously don’t have to take any kind of meaningful test. They are simply being issued the licenses. That has resulted in a lot of damage and lost lives. And this is just one way they are causing chaos in a town that does not have the resources to afford it. But that’s being brushed away because it doesn’t fit the narrative of immigrants as only a benefit and this all as inevitable growing pains that we must endure or be accused of being racist and “fascist.”
This is very funny. Conservatism is irredeemably infected with racism, by design, since at least the 50s. All of you folks trying to whitewash that as being about capital gains tax? Gaslighting or intellectually dishonest.
For the life of me, I can’t comprehend how anyone would think it’s a good idea to import 20,000 immigrants into a city of 60,000 -regardless of race and ethnicity. This is next level stupid.
It’s hard to envision Marjorie Taylor Greene saying something reasonable, since I usually consider her a nutjob of the Laura Loomer ilk. I guess it’s true that there’s always hope. Thank you for this article, Zaid.
We should definitely be taking immigration seriously, but don’t we bare some responsibility to for the conditions that are driving immigration? Especially in Latin America and certain parts of Asia?
You wrote: "The Georgia congresswoman took an important step last night when she signaled to her fellow Republicans that racism is unacceptable. Credit where credit is due."
You mean the Georgia congresswoman who stated online that California wildfires were started by "Jewish space lasers"? That congresswoman? You really do have a blindspot when it comes to the Jews, Zaid.
She apologized on the house floor for her space lasers remark and other conspiracy theories. Should I put that in every article about her for eternity just because you have a fixation about that topic? One of my overriding beliefs is that victim complexes are toxic. She’s said plenty of unkind things towards Muslims too but I didn’t include them in the article . Heck the article is about how she’s defending a Hindu Indian family from racist remarks! That’s the group most historically oppositional to mine. But my life isn’t grievance and your hangups shouldn’t be yours either.
Are you joking with this???? "If a national politician spent a week accusing Jewish people of systematically kidnapping and devouring people’s pets, and then said all they wanted was a fair debate about Israeli policy ... they’d be laughed out of the room"
Where have you been for the past 10 months???
I was at the Austin City Council meeting today, sitting in solidarity with my Jewish neighbors while a loud and aggressive crowd demanded the city council call for a ceasefire in Gaza. I recommend you watch it.
Jews are being falsely accused of apartheid, colonialism, genocide, and other associated blood libels every single day.
Politicians, journalists, media personalities, and celebrities have been accusing the Jews of far worse than "eating cats and dogs" for almost a year.
You have a serious blindspot when it comes to Jewish people, Zaid. What are you pretending not to know?
And you are doing the very dangerous thing of equating Israeli government policy and IDF sadism with "Jewish people".
It is Israel that is an apartheid, racist, colonialist state operating a slow-motion genocide as we speak.
Many Jewish people, both inside Israel and out, are vociferously opposed to what they describe as "an apartheid, racist, colonialist state operating a slow-motion genocide".
It is people like you who identify "being Jewish" with the mass murder of Palestinians and the anal rape of Palestinian hostages who are antisemitic.
Anyone with an uncorrupted sense of ethics/morality, and by corrupted I mean ideologically/politically obsessed, can see that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a horror.
It's so absolutely crystal clear.
I wonder if a pile of bodies 50K high outside your home when you leave next time would help you see that.
I fear that there are many in "the west" who have become so desensitized to political violence that the claim that defending a genocide equates to "western values" just rolls off their tongues.
I too am very upset about Gaza and the civilian casualties there. But it’s war, not genocide. War is bad. But this is a war that Hamas wanted and caused. I’m very upset about October 7 too. You should be, but I don’t think you really are.
I get that calling a high-tech military obliterating homes, schools, hospitals and essential infrastructure in order to punish/ethnically cleanse 2 million+ people a "war" is one of the ways politically moronized folks talk about the ongoing genocide.
But that's just BS.
I thought October 7 was bad, if predictable given the circumstances unfolding around a people living in a prison camp, but it was a long time ago and a lot of blood has flown through the streets of an utterly blasted landscape since then.
Again, I know in advance the kind of BS that you bloodthirsty moral idiots trot out around this non-stop crime against humanity, so... let it go, Heinrich,
Wow. Very persuasive. It’s fine, the definition and the law are on my side. You’re just an impotent soft wannabe leftist who couldn’t manage to build a coalition with even people who agree with you and have told you as much. All to just throw around a spicy term you don’t understand.
"It’s one thing to debate migration policy. It’s another to vilify a population."
"But tensions soared after a tragedy last year, when a minivan barreled into a school bus in a traffic accident, and the driver happened to be one of the Haitian immigrants. Many in the town blamed not just the reckless driver but the entire Haitian community."
"[MTG's denunciation of Loomer] is a step in the right direction ... The Georgia congresswoman took an important step last night when she signaled to her fellow Republicans that racism is unacceptable. Credit where credit is due."
====
All well said. Let us now fast-forward to 2 hours ago. Marjorie Taylor Greene, fresh off of doing her one good deed for the year, herself politicized a tragedy and herself used the situation to vilify an entire population.
Long story short, a man named Omar Garcia was charged with two counts of vehicular homicide, one count of serious injury by vehicle, DUI, driving without a license, fleeing/attempting to elude, reckless driving, and driving too fast for conditions.
A reprehensible individual. Mr. Garcia is an immigrant. And according to MTG, an illegal immigrant. I think we all know where this is going. MGT is using him therefore to vilify the entire immigrant population. Labeled the action as "murder," just like JD Vance did in the Haitian minivan incident that Zaid alluded to. And stated the names of the victims, therefore dragging them into her political message.
MGT says: "The blood of these innocent Americans who were killed by this illegal alien are on the hands of Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Secretary Mayorkas, and every open borders Democrat — and they are covered in it! How many more Americans have to die before Joe Biden and Kamala Harris finally secure our borders and stop inviting people from every corner of the world into our country illegally?"
The white population in the U.S. peaked at nearly 90%, but now it's down to 60%. That's a significant shift. In places like Springfield, where immigration is happening quickly, it's understandably tough for residents to adjust. Instead of calling them racist, we could be more understanding of their concerns. Rapid change can be hard for any community, and I wouldn’t want mine to change so quickly either.
Thanks. I feel the same way. But I think the false rumors, largely propagated by people outside Springfield, only make things worse?
Agreed. But the cat nip of Trumps crazy online nonsense should not be used to ignore the very real challenges of Springfield. I imagine liberals and conservatives have different visions on how to deal with these challenges. That’s the debate we need.
This is the mayor of Springfield (https://x.com/TMinarchist/status/1833260238507753530) who has denied the problems.
This is the city manager (https://x.com/LarryDJonesJr/status/1834023579823886706) who has denied the problems
This is the man running for mayor based on what he sees as problems (https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1832773191976014217).
Do you notice anything that might put a hole in your narrative there?
Heck said this. This is worthy of conversation. "These rumors will not distract us from the real strain on our resources, including the impact to our schools, health care system and first responders," Heck said.
Think of this in the context of NIMBYISM where a community can shut down a single development project by using the system and complaining about road and school capacity. Do you think adding 15,000 immigrants is going to push the limits of that capacity? That’s a fair conversation.
So I listened to Heck’s whole speech before I responded. Here is what I heard: a salesman pleading with industry not to go somewhere else, because the only problem the town is really facing is a strain on resources, and they promise they’ll fix it. Ignore all those rumors about anything else. And from his point of view, this influx of migrants is a great thing. They’re a workforce with very low expectations. I have to ask: if these jobs were so great, why were Americans not moving to the area? Why Haitians?
There is a lot of exploitation going on here. I wasn’t paying attention until I started reading between the lines. They’re exploiting the community because these people are really too poor for anyone to give a damn about them or listen to them, and they’re exploiting the Haitians. They’re a cheap workforce with low expectations. And given that now everyone wants to pour in taxpayer money, they’re exploiting the taxpayers as well to help put a bandaid over the problems of exploiting the first two groups. And once again, “business” makes out like a bandit. It’s the real American dream.
This clip has been making the rounds(guy looks like Mario!), homeless activist in Springfield highlighting that US bets getting short shrift compared to newcomers. This is sort of thing that inflames because it reinforces that existing citizens are deprioritized vs. new immigrants.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/s/isGilFYm9J
What is my narrative? Do me the honor of steel manning it for me.
"The white population in the U.S. peaked at nearly 90%, but now it's down to 60%. That's a significant shift. In places like Springfield, where immigration is happening quickly, it's understandably tough for residents to adjust."
I think it's obvious. Those white folk are just worried because things are changing. We need to understand them and be patient. It just drips with condescension. Just call them bigots and get it overwith.
In case you didn't bother to check, the mayor and the city manager who downplayed the problems are white, and the guy who is running for mayor is black. So how does that play with your insinuations of racial demographics and "trouble adapting to change" being the big issue here?
I am them. I do not call them bigots. They are my friends and family. I come from an even smaller town not too far from there. You have me wrong, madame.
You did just call them bigots. You might fancy up the words a bit, but that’s essentially what you’re saying. You may not realize you’re saying it. You may honestly think that you’re finding nuance or being patient with those less—what would be a good word—open-minded than you. But that is what you are saying when you dismiss all this a worries about demographic change.
Wow you will not let this go. You’re just wrong. I did not call them bigots. This is clearly a you thing. By the way you don’t get to tell me what I mean.
You are right that I do believe there is complicated nuance here that is all very human. You’re 100% wrong that I’m calling them bigots. I’m actually calling out many who are in fact inferring they are bigots.
Were done.
I really appreciate this and your piece at The Dispatch. I've said for years that many of the classic conservative values of the GOP would align strongly with immigrant citizens if they'd just stop leaning on bigoted messaging.
I think the progressive folks at George Lakoff's FrameLab often overstate their case, but their point that attacking Afro-Caribbean immigrants has subtext about VP Harris is one that I'm chewing on this week.
9A, I agree there are many conservative values of GOP that go hand-to-glove with immigrant citizens. But some much more than others. For example, Mexicans (most/many with strong Christian ethics) have assimilated with native USA population the very best. So did Cuban immigrants, as did Vietnamese due to shared anti-socialist/communist views. Now, with the very latest immigrants what are the ties that can bind? We need to find them and then celebrate them. My wife and I are evangelical churchgoers. For past 2-years my wife has volunteered to drive Afghan women immigrants to English class at local church, then watch their kids so those women can learn the English language. This is what Christianity calls her to do (welcome the sojourner). But from a pure assimilation POV, this also helps newcomers join our melting pot. From my side, I fell into playing basketball with a group of Persians, who are 1st, 2nd and now 3rd generation refugees from Iran. Some of my best friends now because of sport, and another example of hard-working people who melted right into the fabric of our country. Our press needs to find and celebrate the coming together stories instead of only the downsides (which there certainly are).
I'm very skeptical about immigration, but I laughed out loud when Trump spewed that nonsense about Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs. What an idiotic thing to say.
Also, having volunteered with homeless people for decades, I can tell you that they sometimes kill raccoons, roast them over an open fire, and eat them. Okay, I saw it done once.
But poor people do desperate things to survive. Which is why I'm voting for the candidate who didn't make groceries unaffordable to the poor and working class. MAGA.
Thanks for your post, Zaid, including the link to your Dispatch drop. It's good even-handed journalism on touchy and important subject.
Indeed, our entire country from its very origins is based on continual 'demographic turnover'. It's in our DNA to absorb new peoples, over and over. The 1798 decree opened flood gate initially for whites to populate the continent. It's also part of our history to halt/stop immigration when the inflow feels threatening to the natives (1882 Chinese, 1917, 1921 & 1924 non-western Europeans).
Then 1965 Immigration Act (opening immigration to Asia and South of border brown skinned peoples) is the latest and context which this unfortunate 'eat the pets' hyperbole originates from. As a conservative, I support modifications to the 1965 Act to have more means-testing (that will likely never occur). I also support you in calling out any and all painting peoples with a broad brush as different/barbaric, such as this case.
I completely sympathize with our fellow citizens (so called deplorables), 60 years removed from 1965 Act, and in much different economic conditions than when Act was passed. I can't blame natives for feeling threatened by newcomers; many see themselves as worse off than their parents, see a wide-open border and a Federal government and Congress who's existence is supported on D-side by endless funding of the Welfare state (which many immigrants initially and some continually rely on and also very much tied to the mid-1960s) -- and on the R-side, endless funding of the Defense Industry which Ike warned us all about when he left office in '61.
I think the most dangerous 'demographic turnover' is occurring in Europe. Countries that do not have any history of this happening. The trans-global upper crust Boomer-class (born '46 - '64) are imposing the USA-experience of people-turnover on UK, France, Germany, etc. touting it as 'good'. But I'm afraid it's going to lead to wars and ugliness well beyond words. It's good to some, and not good for others. Those peoples (unlike USA) long ago segregated themselves into specific land places. Now those age-old neighborhoods are being changed (browned), but all in one-generation. What we saw recently in the UK isn't going away. And if governments are going to throw folks in jail for protesting against this rapid demographic change, then civil wars in the EU-region have a higher opportunity to occur.
While I see your point, I think there is a more crucial one to be made. 20K Haitians came into a town of 60K. At least two people have been killed by the immigrants' reckless driving. They are pushing up the rent and putting an extreme strain on the social services of the town. And none of this gets noticed by you or by the media until wild stories start flying around about eating pets. And yes I know what you'll say: but they hysteria distracts from the problem. To which I laugh in caustic disbelief because the hysteria is the *only reason* anyone has noticed the problem.
This is what happens when you ignore things. I've seen videos from that town. It's a poor, poor town. They can't handle this kind of influx of anybody, much less a bunch of people that don't speak the language and need a lot of help. And, yes, maybe a few Haitians are working there, but they're also clogging up the welfare office and putting a strain on the school system and other services.
As for the local city managers' denials? Ha. Now that people have noticed there is an issue, DeWine is wanting to dump millions on the town. It won't really go to help the locals, but I bet a bunch of bureaucrats and NGOs are going to make bank. Continuing the problem is now financially incentivized as is denial that the Haitians are anything but model citizens with a few rotten apples.
We don't live in rational times. If we did, it wouldn't have taken this to get that town help and start a conversation about this problem.
It's not true that nobody noticed the town until the fake stories though. The New York Times ran a very lengthy piece about it that I thought was quite evenhanded on September 3rd. And this was before Donald Trump said a single word on the matter. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/03/us/springfield-ohio-school-bus-crash-haiti-immigrants.html
Now go Google New York TImes and Springfield Ohio, and see what you discover. Hint: it will be that for that one lone article they have _eight_ about the cat rumor. So you're seriously going to tell me this is the New York Times "noticing" the problem. They have _eight_ stories about the rumor and one story about the problems in the town. So what do you think they *really* care about? Getting Trump or helping get the town noticed?
My point is still well made.
Well the question can also be turned. Do we care about helping Trump or honest journalism about the town? Because it seems like you wanted a hit piece on the Haitian immigrants, and you haven't acknowledged that the town was in danger of collapsing just 10 years ago because of all the population losses, job losses, etc. That's all been reversed, their budget is healthier than ever, they have tons of job openings, people moving in. There are also growing pains and issues with that, but I don't think the picture you want painted is particularly balanced or journalistic either.
I just looked at this article you posted past the headline because I had to go through archive.is. Here is the subtitle: "Jobs attracted thousands of Haitians to Springfield, and employers were ecstatic. But then an immigrant driver was involved in a fatal school bus crash. And JD Vance entered the fray."
I am going to suggest that had "JD Vance" not gotten involved this *never* would have made the pages of the New York Times. They don't care about the immigrants. They don't care about the school bus crash. They don't care about the town. They care that "JD Vance" got involved. And I can prove this because JD Vance (and proving how racist and wrong he is) is the focus of the article:
"The stage was set for another fraught chapter in the debate over immigration in America, this one magnified because JD Vance, the state’s junior senator, would soon become the Republican vice-presidential nominee."
I was not looking for a "hit piece" on Haitian immigrants. I was looking for honesty. I didn't get it from the New York Times. And I'm not getting it from you.
As for healthy budgets and more jobs . . . what benefits one group of people often costs another. There weren't twenty-thousand added jobs. I can tell you that. And town coffers often bloom based on events that in general don't bode well for their residents. Ask the people of any town in Montana where a swarm of remote workers came in, drove up housing prices, drove up property taxes, and left the locals struggling to afford homes and rent. From the bottom line perspective, wonderful, right? From an affordable living for the locals standpoint, not so great. You're making a common mistake of the capitalist class that "mo' money" can offset anything.
So here's a request. Put down the New York Times, and go spend some time on Twitter. Look at the videos of the townspeople. Some of them are full of shit. I'll admit it. But some, like the woman who lost her 71 year old mother in law because she was hit in her driveway moving the garbage can and no one has even been arrested for it much less prosecuted, are heartbreaking to listen to. And the guy running for mayor because he's angry about what's going on is not Caucasian, so this isn't a "race" thing. This is a "people at a distance don't care because our problems don't fit your narrative" thing.
I thought the NYT article was fine. Vance was definitely not the focus of the article; it effectively conveys the mess and chaos that inevitably results when you suddenly add 20,000 immigrants from a very different culture. But also some of the less dire realities. Is this a good outcome, is the town now in good shape? Probably not. As you say, the real problem is those who exploit others' desperation. Does that mean that Haitians living in Florida should not be allowed to move to other states for better opportunities, or that we should turn away all refugees from a country ravaged by civil war that lies on our doorstep? There are no easy answers, just humane and realistic ones; we have to go with the values that matter most to us, and debate this in good faith when we disagree. I didn't hear any overtones of fascism or dehumanization in what you said, and you make important observations. But you're just as biased as I am (or Zaid for that matter). Which doesn't particularly bother me, it's part of the challenge of figuring out where we stand on all this stuff.
As for the Times writers only running this piece because it came up in Vance's speech and not giving a shit: I mean, maybe. But maybe not. I've seen plenty of decent media coverage of local issues that weren't namechecked by major politicians. What difference does it make what the impetus was, as long as it resulted in something that deserved coverage getting covered? Journalists should do research and seek out what's overlooked, but that doesn't mean they can't also follow up on something that entered the public discussion after becoming a talking point in the election race.
The article is fine if you are fine with the New York Times' shallowness. And it was a "get JD Vance" article, with the basic message being, "Yes, there are some problems, but that bigot just hates these newcomers and wants to make something out of nothing and look how great the business interests are doing. The guy who invested $25 mil in the town is certainly jumping for joy. (I suppose I wonder how he knew to invest $25 mil in a random town in Ohio buying and refurbishing "distressed" homes, but I seem to be the only one.) All those landlords that could stop taking government vouchers for rent to help low-income people and are now renting to Haitians. So we end up with homeless locals. Pfft. They can move on. JD Vance is such a big meanie and so overreactive." If JD Vance hadn't mentioned Springfield, neither would the Times, and that colored their coverage. And, yes, we all have our bias, but a little journalistic curiosity wouldn't kill those with resources. I have to rely on Twitter and sources like the New York Times. Twitter and the New York Times aren't painting the same picture. Independent media should fill that in, but in this case, there seems to be no curiosity at all.
Don't you wonder how twenty thousand Haitians end up in a random little town in Ohio? I mean, yes people will move into an area in mass if jobs are on offer, but there aren't *that many jobs* on offer because they're still flooding the welfare offices and it's all Haitians, not a mix of immigrants. It's almost as if they were recruited. If these jobs are so great, then why haven't the locals been taking them? Or other people looking for work going there? Don't you have questions? Are the Haitians really being treated properly by the employers? Are they being paid the average wages for the area? Is the town itself getting some financial perk that they're willing to sacrifice their citizens' standard of living for?
Now see *that* would have been a real article.
Were there any other vehicle related fatalities NOT involving Haitian immigrants? Do the statistics suggest that Haitian immigrants are overly responsible for vehicular fatalities based on the percentage of population they represent compared per capita to other US locations?
I’m not suggesting a conversation can’t be had either. But base it on reality, not disgusting fascist lies, please.
Ruth, a suggestion? Perhaps refrain from calling folks you disagree with as speaking as a 'fascist'? I nodded my head with the 1st paragraph of your post. Then the words 'disgusting and fascist' turned my head from vertical, to horizontal. Lillia and her drops here are neither disgusting or fascist, IMO.
My first impulse was to immediately apologize because I absolutely agree with you that name calling, especially with loaded language like “fascist” and “disgusting” is unacceptable and the furthest thing from persuasive.
Then I looked back at what I wrote before I dropped to my knees and prostrated myself and saw that it was the lies I’d labeled and not the people putting the lies out there. Fascist propaganda is fascist propaganda. The lies do disgust me and they are objectively dangerous. History bears out this claim. See Nazi Germany “Jews as vermin taking what belongs to rightful Germans”.
This is the same kind of talk.
I do apologize if anyone felt I was referring to THEM as disgusting or fascist, but not for my description of the rhetoric as same.
Appreciate you making me check myself, though. Really.
Thank you, Ruth. We are all fallen people and sin on the daily, all of us. I post stuff from time to time I wish I hadn't. No need to prostrate or anything like that, just would be great on Zaid's site if we could remember our collective humanity and not pick and choose who is worthy of empathy/decency. I feel largely that is what the Left has done with Trump, each time I hear the 'fascists' language come out. And then when he states the pet-stuff that provides fuel to that already raging-fire, which is regrettable.
Oh, good grief girl. Stop with the virtue signaling. Fascism was a collectivist ideological answer to communism that gave corporations the run of the country. That's it. The right screams "communism" and the left screams "fascism" and neither has any real idea what either one really means. And I find anyone who throws those terms around lightly to be somewhere on the spectrum of ridiculous, and, yes, before your feathers get all ruffled and you waste more time raging at me, that includes Trump. Despite what you and Mr. Jilani may think, not everything is a duality of for or against Trump.
The fact that you use the word “fascist” in a way that does not reflect its meaning suggests you’re not a serious person, but I’ll give you a serious answer anyway.
When a local citizen is given a license to drive, it is because at some point they have taken driver’s education, gone through the permit process, and taken and passed both a written test and a road test. If later they are in an accident that causes a fatality, the state has done its due diligence to make sure they knew the rules of the road and how to safely operate the vehicle. Many Haitians are being given drivers’ licenses when they clearly cannot drive. They obviously don’t have to take any kind of meaningful test. They are simply being issued the licenses. That has resulted in a lot of damage and lost lives. And this is just one way they are causing chaos in a town that does not have the resources to afford it. But that’s being brushed away because it doesn’t fit the narrative of immigrants as only a benefit and this all as inevitable growing pains that we must endure or be accused of being racist and “fascist.”
The story doesn't seem even-handed to me. Just sayin'
Hi, what is the purpose of importing the most dysfunctional and least educated people in the entire western hemisphere? Thanks
This is very funny. Conservatism is irredeemably infected with racism, by design, since at least the 50s. All of you folks trying to whitewash that as being about capital gains tax? Gaslighting or intellectually dishonest.
Please, please, please stop being stupid.
Please please please try to either resemble a prof or a chill person.
Is this what passes for a chill person these days? “Conservatism is irredeemably infected with racism, by design, since at least the 50s.”
Why should someone be chill about that?
“Conservatism has a proud tradition.”
Of endless racist, class privilege and restrictive anti-liberty views.
This couldn’t be more false and dangerous rhetoric from you.
For the life of me, I can’t comprehend how anyone would think it’s a good idea to import 20,000 immigrants into a city of 60,000 -regardless of race and ethnicity. This is next level stupid.
That's what I thought. There is zero reason to have a single Hatian in the US, and dozens of reasons not to. They are all going back.
It’s hard to envision Marjorie Taylor Greene saying something reasonable, since I usually consider her a nutjob of the Laura Loomer ilk. I guess it’s true that there’s always hope. Thank you for this article, Zaid.
We should definitely be taking immigration seriously, but don’t we bare some responsibility to for the conditions that are driving immigration? Especially in Latin America and certain parts of Asia?
You wrote: "The Georgia congresswoman took an important step last night when she signaled to her fellow Republicans that racism is unacceptable. Credit where credit is due."
You mean the Georgia congresswoman who stated online that California wildfires were started by "Jewish space lasers"? That congresswoman? You really do have a blindspot when it comes to the Jews, Zaid.
She apologized on the house floor for her space lasers remark and other conspiracy theories. Should I put that in every article about her for eternity just because you have a fixation about that topic? One of my overriding beliefs is that victim complexes are toxic. She’s said plenty of unkind things towards Muslims too but I didn’t include them in the article . Heck the article is about how she’s defending a Hindu Indian family from racist remarks! That’s the group most historically oppositional to mine. But my life isn’t grievance and your hangups shouldn’t be yours either.
Are you joking with this???? "If a national politician spent a week accusing Jewish people of systematically kidnapping and devouring people’s pets, and then said all they wanted was a fair debate about Israeli policy ... they’d be laughed out of the room"
Where have you been for the past 10 months???
I was at the Austin City Council meeting today, sitting in solidarity with my Jewish neighbors while a loud and aggressive crowd demanded the city council call for a ceasefire in Gaza. I recommend you watch it.
Jews are being falsely accused of apartheid, colonialism, genocide, and other associated blood libels every single day.
Politicians, journalists, media personalities, and celebrities have been accusing the Jews of far worse than "eating cats and dogs" for almost a year.
You have a serious blindspot when it comes to Jewish people, Zaid. What are you pretending not to know?
And you are doing the very dangerous thing of equating Israeli government policy and IDF sadism with "Jewish people".
It is Israel that is an apartheid, racist, colonialist state operating a slow-motion genocide as we speak.
Many Jewish people, both inside Israel and out, are vociferously opposed to what they describe as "an apartheid, racist, colonialist state operating a slow-motion genocide".
It is people like you who identify "being Jewish" with the mass murder of Palestinians and the anal rape of Palestinian hostages who are antisemitic.
Penny Adrian’s takes are generally colossally bad, but you’re deeply wrong here too.
I don't think so.
Anyone with an uncorrupted sense of ethics/morality, and by corrupted I mean ideologically/politically obsessed, can see that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a horror.
It's so absolutely crystal clear.
I wonder if a pile of bodies 50K high outside your home when you leave next time would help you see that.
I fear that there are many in "the west" who have become so desensitized to political violence that the claim that defending a genocide equates to "western values" just rolls off their tongues.
I too am very upset about Gaza and the civilian casualties there. But it’s war, not genocide. War is bad. But this is a war that Hamas wanted and caused. I’m very upset about October 7 too. You should be, but I don’t think you really are.
Sorry.
I get that calling a high-tech military obliterating homes, schools, hospitals and essential infrastructure in order to punish/ethnically cleanse 2 million+ people a "war" is one of the ways politically moronized folks talk about the ongoing genocide.
But that's just BS.
I thought October 7 was bad, if predictable given the circumstances unfolding around a people living in a prison camp, but it was a long time ago and a lot of blood has flown through the streets of an utterly blasted landscape since then.
Again, I know in advance the kind of BS that you bloodthirsty moral idiots trot out around this non-stop crime against humanity, so... let it go, Heinrich,
Wow. Very persuasive. It’s fine, the definition and the law are on my side. You’re just an impotent soft wannabe leftist who couldn’t manage to build a coalition with even people who agree with you and have told you as much. All to just throw around a spicy term you don’t understand.
It’s sad.
"It’s one thing to debate migration policy. It’s another to vilify a population."
"But tensions soared after a tragedy last year, when a minivan barreled into a school bus in a traffic accident, and the driver happened to be one of the Haitian immigrants. Many in the town blamed not just the reckless driver but the entire Haitian community."
"[MTG's denunciation of Loomer] is a step in the right direction ... The Georgia congresswoman took an important step last night when she signaled to her fellow Republicans that racism is unacceptable. Credit where credit is due."
====
All well said. Let us now fast-forward to 2 hours ago. Marjorie Taylor Greene, fresh off of doing her one good deed for the year, herself politicized a tragedy and herself used the situation to vilify an entire population.
Here's the underlying article for context: https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/deadly-crash-2-killed-1-year-old-hurt-rome/85-6837d150-bf4a-46c6-9fca-1be47eba63c2
Here's MTG's post: https://x.com/RepMTG/status/1834335936131285234
Long story short, a man named Omar Garcia was charged with two counts of vehicular homicide, one count of serious injury by vehicle, DUI, driving without a license, fleeing/attempting to elude, reckless driving, and driving too fast for conditions.
A reprehensible individual. Mr. Garcia is an immigrant. And according to MTG, an illegal immigrant. I think we all know where this is going. MGT is using him therefore to vilify the entire immigrant population. Labeled the action as "murder," just like JD Vance did in the Haitian minivan incident that Zaid alluded to. And stated the names of the victims, therefore dragging them into her political message.
MGT says: "The blood of these innocent Americans who were killed by this illegal alien are on the hands of Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Secretary Mayorkas, and every open borders Democrat — and they are covered in it! How many more Americans have to die before Joe Biden and Kamala Harris finally secure our borders and stop inviting people from every corner of the world into our country illegally?"